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Half dance, half juggling, half mime, half magic....I'm a contact juggler, not a mathematician
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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2010, 07:14 
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RollingThunder wrote:
http://www.lightningcontact.com

Still working on it; not everything is functional, and not everything is worded exactly right, but it's coming along..


@ rolling thunder, i see this on your website...
" Since I was also studying Chinese medicine, shiatsu massage, juggling and dance, certain parts of these activities found their way into my style and method of learning."

But i dont see any information about actual classes or courses you have taken. out of curiosity, what are your qualifications for teaching contact as a form of self help?

I find it intriging that having only been doing contact for a year and a half you feel this is enough to teach it as a martial art or anything other than what it is?

"The Health Benefits of Lightning Contact

Like many of its predecessors, Lightning Contact lays claim to several health benefits, including but not limited to the following:

* Release of nervous tension
* Increased concentration and focus
* Waking up without the use of stimulants
* A sense of unity with others"


this i have a slight problem with, how can you possibly promise "unity with others"?
Excuse my bluntness but i cant see how approaching contact from this angle can be benificial to anyone, maybe i dont see the full picture though. can you explain how you achieve these results fro me?

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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 07:37 
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Sorry su-nami, I probably should have been more explicit on my webpage, and probably will in the future when I actually offer the book and paid courses. At the time I wrote some of the material, it didn't seem quite as important.

However, I have studied shiatsu massage for four years in the Iokai Shiatsu school founded by Shizuto Masunaga. This school places a great importance on learning to feel the meridians and acupuncture points, something which isn't always the case in other schools. We also practice a lot of Qigong and Do-in self-massage and stretching, and enter into the theory underlying Chinese medicine, yin/yang and the five elements in some detail. I have also been studying the Taoist classic texts for quite a while, and found the 11th century book on internal alchemy, "Understanding Reality" by Chang Po-tuan, to be particularly enlightening. I sometimes prefer to talk about Chinese medicine instead of alchemy, since this calls to mind images of robed figures stirring cauldrons in the middle of the night. My current contact work is centered around the cycle of five elements ("movements"), and I spend quite a bit of time working with people through the phases of Earth -> Metal -> Water -> Wood -> Fire -> Earth. I combine the use of the senses with specific movements, as well as advising people to notice where there are zones of excess tension or insufficient tension; and I work on all areas of the body, emphasizing the use of both peaks and valleys in the body's surface in order to develop an overall balance and fluidity in the body's movements.

As far as dance goes, I have studied what the French call "rock dancing" for two years (as well as all the ballroom dancing that went with it), Lindy Hop for a little over a year, African dancing from the Côte d'Ivoire for about a year, folk dancing for one year, and contact improv for well over a year. There might be another class or so that I'm forgetting right now. However, I don't think your question was about my studies in dance.

Although I may not have mentioned it on the webpage you're quoting from, I also apprenticed for several years with some Toltec shamans from Don Miguel Ruiz's lineage. I suppose the apprenticeship isn't entirely finished, although my move to France cut our personal contact down to almost nil. If I choose to do so in the future, I have their blessing to teach to others what I've learned from them.

As far as ball contact goes, I learned it on my own through trial and error, experimenting with the concepts and trance techniques I had learned first during my shamanic apprenticeship, and then through my training in Qigong and shiatsu massage. The year-and-a-half date you refer to was the length of time I learned on my own without any contact with contact jugglers. After this time, I decided to see what others were doing, and realized that it was wildly different from what I was now regularly practicing myself. So after this year and a half of learning on my own, I decided to compile a list of notes about what I had discovered and ideas that came to me during my practice sessions, and eventually these began to take on a semi-structured shape. This list of notes, derived from application of my shamanic training to practice with a ball, eventually began to resemble a book, and I continued to add first what I discovered from the Taoist classics and my shiatsu and dance classes, and then from my extra research into Chinese medicine, trance states and neurochemistry, and general health. I'm not the greatest expert in all of these subjects, and I don't claim to be, but I do have enough experience to understand some of the basic principles that underly not only ball contact, but all life as we know it. That's what I teach, and not just with a ball. As far as teaching with a ball, I've been doing Lightning Contact now for five years, and have introduced enough people to it to be able to recognize where people are going wrong and offer them helpful advice.

And yes, I wasn't sure about the wording on that page. "Laying claim to health benefits" is dangerous ground to walk upon, especially without proper research and testing which would probably be impossible without a huge laboratory with a control group learning "false contact" and another one learning "true contact" (if these two ideas even had any meaning). And yes, I may be liable to be sued if I don't cover all the scenarios in which someone could hurt themselves, and honestly, many of us do risk wrist or shoulder injuries if we don't take necessary precautions. This is one reason that the publishing of my book has been delayed for over a year: I've managed to sustain mild injuries of various types through my own trials and errors, and I want to warn people of as many of these dangers as possible, while giving them some basic ground rules to avoid them.

"A sense of unity with others"? Well, perhaps that is a lot to promise, but it's based on my own experience with the "Impulse" phase of Lightning Contact, in which I begin to feel a "connection" with the ball, which then widens and opens up into a feeling of unity and harmony with not only the ball, but with my surroundings as well. This state, which is one of "exactly right" automatic reactions to external stimuli, tends to last for quite a while after my sessions are over, and bleeds over into my contact with other people. I tend to know just what to do and say in almost any circumstance, as if I were naturally gifted in whatever it is I'm doing at the time. So maybe you're right, and that I make great claims which people will have to find out for themselves if they're true, but from my experience with teaching others, a lot of what I've said here has been confirmed without any prompting on my part.

So to sum up, yes I make a lot of claims, and most of them have been confirmed by others. However, as I am the only person I know who has gone as far as I have in what I've personally learned, it's hard to say if it's all true for everybody or not. I hope to change that when I publish my book, and that I'll be able to learn from those who've learned from me. Generally speaking - and I state this in my book - almost nothing is true for everybody, so each person needs to find out for oneself what works for him or her individually. This is the main difference between mystical schools and orthodox schools: mystical schools tell you to learn for yourself what is true for you and place you on the same level as others, whereas orthodox schools tell you what is true for everyone and place you in a hierarchy where teachers and qualifications are more important than personal experience. And in the end, what does it really matter to anyone else where I got my ideas? From my point of view, what is most important is whether or not they work. If what I teach doesn't work for you, then do something else. If it does work for you, then use it to develop your own unique style. I don't want everyone to copy my style; that has been done ad nauseum with others' performances, and I prefer people to develop their own means of self-expression based on their own body types, personal preferences, and creative pathways.

Does that answer your questions? :)

- RollingThunder

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Last edited by RollingThunder on 20 Jul 2012, 12:56, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 08:07 
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RollingThunder wrote:

. This is the main difference between mystical schools and orthodox schools: mystical schools tell you to learn for yourself what is true for you and place you on the same level as others, whereas orthodox schools tell you what is true for everyone and place you in a hierarchy where teachers and qualifications are more important than personal experience. And in the end, what does it really matter to anyone else where I got my ideas? From my point of view, what is most important is whether or not they work. If what I teach doesn't work for you, then do something else. If it does work for you, then use it to develop your own unique style. I don't want everyone to copy my style; that has been done ad nauseum with Michael Moschen's performance, and I prefer people to develop their own means of self-expression based on their own body types, personal preferences, and creative pathways.

Does that answer your questions? :)

- RollingThunder


Ok so you have qualificatiosn from certain school, i would personally recomend that you put that on your website with ;links if there are any to the school so people can see how reputable they are.
I dont know if your attitude towards orthodox learning is particularly healthy, if at some point your teaching became accepted as an orthodox teaching would you then reject it because it puts you in a hirearchy of those who have learned it and those who have not?
schools that teach sports or movement or martial arts have often gone through a rediculous amount of years of trial and error to perfect the skill and this they pass down to other people.
i personally think it takes a good 20 years to become a master at anything, enough so to be teaching people this thing that you have learned.
And please dont take offence at this but i really don't believe five years is enough. Had you not mentioned contact at all i might have thought maybe you do have neough experience at whatever it is you teach but im pretty sure contact taught by someone who has been practicing for five years is not going to give anyone a sense of unity.
If you truly want to help people, i think the best thing to do is study longer before dealing out your own specific dogma. I am only writing this because i see an amount of people in the world who are lonely or depressed and desperatly searching for this feeling of unity and may then pay money for your teachings and not recieve it, i think this is a very dodgy line to be walking and when you make claims like this you have to take resonsability for delivering.
If you genuinly believe you can do this and you're not just taking peoples money then i dont believe you are doing anything wrong, consiously, but if you really don't believe this then perhaps you need to review your website drastically.

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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 11:53 
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su-nami wrote:
Ok so you have qualificatiosn from certain school, i would personally recomend that you put that on your website with ;links if there are any to the school so people can see how reputable they are.


Okay, that's a good point, and one that I will address later. But again, this really does get into the old argument of whether or not a student can ever progress further than his or her own teacher. I believe the student can and should (at least in some areas) if the master is competent.

su-nami wrote:
I dont know if your attitude towards orthodox learning is particularly healthy, if at some point your teaching became accepted as an orthodox teaching would you then reject it because it puts you in a hirearchy of those who have learned it and those who have not?


I believe that as long as the teacher continues to learn just like the students who come to him or her, and stresses that the true answers are inside the students, the teacher maintains enough humility not to harm them with erroneous information. Good schools always push students to have the experience themselves, and allow them to come to their own conclusions rather than stuffing dogma down their throats.

su-nami wrote:
And please dont take offence at this but i really don't believe five years is enough. Had you not mentioned contact at all i might have thought maybe you do have neough experience at whatever it is you teach but im pretty sure contact taught by someone who has been practicing for five years is not going to give anyone a sense of unity.
If you truly want to help people, i think the best thing to do is study longer before dealing out your own specific dogma. I am only writing this because i see an amount of people in the world who are lonely or depressed and desperatly searching for this feeling of unity and may then pay money for your teachings and not recieve it, i think this is a very dodgy line to be walking and when you make claims like this you have to take resonsability for delivering.


I don't take offense, but you also don't know what I teach. If you did, you might think differently. Maybe five years is enough, or maybe twenty years is necessary. What I have learned from my own experience is that people who have lots of experience with T'ai Chi, dancing, "energy ball" work, or any other activity requiring balance, fluidity and a heightened sense of proprioception; pick up on ball contact much more easily than people who haven't. Why is this? Because skills are transferable, and anything one learns in one sphere of knowledge tends to seep into all other spheres as well. So, to me, how many years someone has been doing ball contact is irrelevant. At two years I was amazing people with five years of experience, and at five years I am still amazing people with much more experience. And why is this? Partially because I've focused on body rolling and not palm spinning and illusion, I suppose. But also because I've dedicated the last five years to finding out exactly what makes contact easier and what makes it harder, and what I teach is based on this and is (admittedly) very simple and down-to-earth. So perhaps promising heaven is a bit much; I'll look at that section and see if I can re-word it to be a bit more clear.

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Last edited by RollingThunder on 20 Jul 2012, 13:00, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 12:43 
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Just be careful you are not taking advantage of desperate people who are genuinely looking for help or understanding.
I personally don't think five years is nearly enough to offer what you are offering.

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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 13:02 
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su-nami wrote:
Just be careful you are not taking advantage of desperate people who are genuinely looking for help or understanding.
I personally don't think five years is nearly enough to offer what you are offering.


Again, I thank you for pointing this out, and will try to re-think at least this section. I too am put off by the New Age propaganda floating around, disguised as "authentic secret teachings" from mysterious hidden masters from the East, or even worse, from the stars. That's why I try to be completely honest about how I've learned what I learned. As for these other "mystery schools", maybe their wild claims are true, or maybe they're not, and you have to either discard them all or take each one case by case, which is admittedly not easy and seems like a waste of time.

And secondly, as far as I can tell you don't really know what I'm offering, which is perhaps a sign that I need to include more information on my site. Also, I don't have 5 short years of experience in what I do. I have at least 15 years experience, and even 20 or more depending on how far back you want to go. The ball is mostly irrelevant; it is simply one of the most accurate gauges I've found for showing progress in mastering the underlying principles. It is the principles I teach, with which most people have a lot of experience, and varying degrees of mastery. The ball is coincidental except as a sign of proper functioning of each phase in the learning cycle.

So I'm teaching what I've been learning for the better part of two decades. What does it matter if it's with a ball, or a dance step, or a musical instrument?

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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2010, 14:14 
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Do groups sites count?
http://www.aether-arts.com

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2010, 21:54 
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@Sennyo I hope so, because here's my newest collaboration website!
http://www.circleandspice.com

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2010, 22:12 
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@Lirnyk I LOVE your site and the look you guys have! :D Yay!! ^_^

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2010, 22:19 
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@Sennyo right back at you, I need to figure out some way to get up there and meet you all!

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2010, 22:33 
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Lirnyk wrote:
@Sennyo right back at you, I need to figure out some way to get up there and meet you all!


:D We would love that! And speaking of that...getting REALLY close to revealing what Aether is up to. Let's just say that you are definitely going to have a place to come play with us anytime you can make it up. :wink: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2010, 12:53 
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-drum rolls-

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2010, 16:54 
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Lirnyk wrote:
@Sennyo right back at you, I need to figure out some way to get up there and meet you all!


Tickets from Indy to Boston are about $350 for a flight on December 18th.. Just saying, NECJ4 is gonna rock.

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PostPosted: 04 May 2011, 04:48 
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Even if you have few french artists in your list, i am thinking of two great professionnals jonglers here in Paris :

http://remilaroussinie.com/
Rémi Laroussinie includes a lot of contact juggling in his shows.

And Miki Tajima who puts a lot of choreography in his CJ show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb-j2vNs ... ure=fvwrel

Road-movie
Sébastien

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PostPosted: 14 May 2011, 19:44 
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Ryan wrote:
dammit; here I am working for Coke during the biggest event in Canada, I have a history of performances all over the world, and I realize that I have neither (a) a website (b) a promo video, or (c) promo photos!

how did this happen? I need a website.


ok done
http://www.ryanmellors.com
added to the list :balance:

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