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Half dance, half juggling, half mime, half magic....I'm a contact juggler, not a mathematician
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 Post subject: Siteswap for contact jugglersPosted: 06 Dec 2004, 06:46

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 08:41
Posts: 1817
Location: Bristol UK
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Monday morning siteswap
why oh why oh why.

Siteswap is used by jugglers for decribing patterns
it is very dull
and very useful for working out new tricks in CJ that involves 2 or 3 balls with some of them being thrown or rolled between the hands.

I'm not going to explain siteswap:
http://www.cix.co.uk/~solipsys/new/Site ... uggleKrazy

is geeky, and only really useful if you juggle, or mix CJ with juggling, AND like to talk about it online.
so I though I would start a discussion

some CJ examples

1 ball circle
butterfly out in L, palm to palm roll butterfly back in on r
back to back roll
I think is in SS: 120
so you get 120120120120
where the the 2's are in turn each half of a butterfly the 1 is the palm to palm or back to back transfer)

cotton in water
312 (same as above but you put the extra ball in where the zeros were
312 312 312 312)

3 ball - another ball in the cotton and the water
52512
52512 52512 52512 here 525 replaces the 3 from before this 2 is only a wait here so really is 2 balls thrown higher replacing the 3 from before in Cotton in water
this SS is also very usefull, as it is the best way to get a chest roll into the pattern while juggling 2 balls - yes it is possible, no i cannot do that... one day maybe.

These are the only 3 ball siteswaps that I find useful for CJ:
423 like columns
42 (juggling 2 in one hand butterfly or manipulate the other ball in the other hand)
42423 useful because the two 2's are the same ball, so it gives you a long time to manipulate 1 ball while juggling the other 2
(4x,2)* or (4,2x)* sycronous first is a bit like a slow cascade the 2nd is box and box variations
52512

2 ball useful siteswaps - much easier
2 alternate
(2,2) syncronous
31

wibble wobble
Drew

Last edited by Drew on 07 Dec 2004, 14:54, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Posted: 06 Dec 2004, 15:39

Joined: 17 Jul 2004, 05:10
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 Post subject: Posted: 06 Dec 2004, 19:04

Joined: 17 Aug 2004, 10:21
Posts: 768
Didn't Joe (theonlygoldenchicken) create a siteswap specific to contact juggling? I seem to remember something like that on the old board.

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 Post subject: Posted: 06 Dec 2004, 19:13

Joined: 17 Oct 2004, 14:43
Posts: 394
Location: oklahoma
im lost i cant think anymore help

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Why toss your balls when you can roll them?

Someday everyone will be on my table!

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 Post subject: Hmm...Posted: 06 Dec 2004, 19:23

Joined: 07 Nov 2004, 17:35
Posts: 135
Location: Houston, TX
I agree with Silver. Drew, you might have just introduced us to a leading cause of spontaneous combustion in the world. Man, could this lead to contact on command, or some other orchestra-type of synchronization? The possibilities are not quite limitless, but very definitely frightening .
Carry on at your own risk...
~Snumpkin

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Been juggling for: 2 Months
Mastered: Circle (both), Circle w/ palm-palm circle (both), inside elbow roll w/stall (both), Right Angle Circle (2/4)
Tinkering with: Various arm rolls, Head stalls

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 02:55

Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 02:25
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Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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Can't go on...mind has blown...thank got I stil know how this keyboard worksjbnk ajbczx,.jv j

O, look men in white jackets and they have one for me, blublublu....

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There is allways a way around it...

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 05:07

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 08:41
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Location: Bristol UK
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Don't worry, you always get that the first time you look at SS.
Feel free to ignore it !!!
it would make your CJ any better or worse to know it.
SS is just sometimes useful for understanding/ creating patterns involving throws.

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 05:29

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 08:41
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Location: Bristol UK
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ps
try this applet
http://www.siteswap.net/applet.html

slow it down a bit, and enter any of the SS numbers that I wrote above
(except the "(4x,2)*" needs to be entered as "(4x,2)(2,4x)" )

all of them have long holds in them (any 2 here is a hold)
now imagine that all the holds were butterflies or other exciting tricks
and that thos very quick passes at the bottom (the 1's) were rolls - like a back to back roll.

Its complex.. I'll go find some videos...

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 05:39

Joined: 30 Sep 2004, 02:25
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Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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Still can't make any chocolat of it. (dutch expression.)
I don't even know where to put the numbers.
Numbers....NUMBERS...oww, don'y stick me with that...feeling sleepy.....

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 13:02

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 15:44
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yeah, this is not making much chocolate for me either.
but not because I see no chocoolate to be made...
I think it's just more suited for ketchup...or any other process which involves the complete mangling of otherwise good ingredients.
Follow, if you will...
The numbers in siteswap are indicative of beats...if they were to be considered indicative of patterns, then the only really CJ relevant numbers would be 0 (ball stays put in closed hand, traditionally) and 2 (ball is flashed from closed hand, tradidionally.) a 1, if you want to REALLY push it, COULD nominally mean rolling between the two hands over 1 beat (as opposed to the tradidtional toss). 3, 4, 5 etc, in terms of contact juggling, are best left to palm spinning patterns which resemble traditional toss patterns...as in a 333, which is the 3-ball cascade in the palms and variations thereof which change the shape but not the tempo of the pattern (as in an isolated ball or, if you were to toss-juggle the cascade, mills mess...yes, mills mess and a cascade have the same siteswap notation...one of the many reasons traditional siteswap is SO poorly suited to contact juggling.)
So we're left to 0, 1, and 2 to describe contact jjuggling...we'd best leave 0 alone, becasue it's a space filler to indicate all balls in a pattern ball are busy doin' their thing ...and in 1-ball work, that 0 is useless...who else is the ball waiting for? So we're down to 1 and 2.
So maybe we can work with this?
Okay, lets sort out some siteswap patterns for the tricks that take 1 beat:
1 ball palm circle isolation, grip isolation: 1
1/2 of a butterfly followed by the other half...eerrr, directionality on the x-axis aside: 1
enigma....wait...the enigma puts a ball in 2 hands at once...siteswap assumes 1 ball per 1 hand, can't go there...no notation. Drat.
Now let's make siteswap with some tricks that take 2 beats. Bring on the 0, kids; the single ball will be busy for mor than 1 beat!:
butterfly, full, repeated: 20
jump from lower hand to upperhand cradle: 20 (this is a legitimate one, guys!!!!!!)
No some other fun patterns... To be kind to contact juggling, I'll even throw a basic siteswap rule out the window and say that the numbers over three represents simply "ball in motion" for x number of beats rather than "odd-number ball changes hands during throw" and even-number "ball returns to same hand post-throw" stuff. Although catch-hand is an undeniably legitimate and useful conotation of the numbers in siteswap, at root, these numbers are intended to denote beats in the air, and the hand-landing issue is a necessary byproduct of these beats.
So here we go:
Remy's chestroll: 300
Ryan's chestroll: 4000
uh...wait...so, uh, what does a chestroll look like again?

loveya, drew, but this one is kinda beyond me...
aloha,
remy

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 13:44

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 08:41
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Location: Bristol UK
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Poke...
In siteswap:
0 is an empty hand !! (which really messes up yer post remy)
1 or 2x can be rolls or anything that passes between the hands, the 2x usually feels less hurried.
2 is a hold or a very small throw to the same hand or much more excitingly an opportunity to do a bit of manipulation like half of a butterfly.

For a whole butterfly, inward then outward, I need to make 1 ball do a 2 then another 2 straight after.
so i need a pattern with -2-something-2- in it

for example
if i want time to catch in my hand and then butterfly inward and outward while juggling the other 2 balls
the simplest way is a 42423
where the double 2 is the butterfly
or (4,2)(4x,2) if it were on a sync timeing

I would never use it to notate contact if I wasnt juggling, thats waaay to geeky for me, but I use it to help work out what to do with the other 2 balls when I'm doing contact and manipulation while juggling, and yes it has been useful.

I really hate all notations for manipulation or dance including laban notation, and chickens Cj notation I think that they suck.

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 14:21

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 15:44
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Location: Los Angeles, California
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Drew...
423? Ryan is sitting right here..he says 423 is a lovely pattern...but is still rifling the room, looking for balls to try and figure out exactly what's going on in both of our heads...
anyhow...
okay, we said the same thing about that 0--all balls are busy=nothing in hand!
And yes, anywhere you have a 2 in traditional siteswap, you have the opportunity for something to happen...but that doesn't really mean anything...a cascade whers every ball is butterflied before being thrown is STILL, arguably, 333.
Actually, it realy may be a non-issue. Anytime a ball is at rest in the hand, say on a 2, is the possibility for manipulation. Aside from that, siteswap as a method of notation is designed with no reguard whatsoever towards manipulations of any sort...witness the cascade/mills' mess point. Siteswap's ambiguous nature towards manipulation allows for the manipulation of the juggled objects within the given siteswap framework in whatever way you can find...but proves useless when trying to notate these manipulations into the patterns.
aloha
rem

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 14:23

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 15:44
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Location: Los Angeles, California
DotOrg bonus points: 31475
...and it may not be as simple as "2-something-2" in order to throw a butterfly into a pattern...those 2's may refer to different balls depending on the lenght of a pattern and the number of balls.

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 Post subject: Posted: 07 Dec 2004, 23:01

Joined: 01 Jul 2004, 23:18
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Ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! Internal bleeding in my skull....

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 Post subject: Posted: 13 Jan 2005, 12:13

Joined: 29 Jun 2004, 08:41
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Location: Bristol UK
DotOrg bonus points: 68500
Remy, you crazy moo.

those 2's in 2-something-2 HAVE TO refer to the same ball.
the cascade where every ball is butterflied before thrown
would be 522522522
or just 522
not 333

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