ContactJuggling.org

Half dance, half juggling, half mime, half magic....I'm a contact juggler, not a mathematician
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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 03:08 
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This is just weird and confusing.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 03:44 
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Mako wrote:
Mark Stampfle via Facebook wrote:
This is dumb. its called contact juggling, not fushigi. with the exception of maybe one or two people in the videos, those people were not good, they there palm isolation were sloppy at best, and even the enigmas were poorly performed. If your in this video i am sorry because you probably contact juggled before this, and maybe quite good and i respect you for you art, but this is dumb. it really takes a way from contact juggling what i originally liked about it. i could keep rambling but i wont, just know that this is dumb.


Not that I have an issue with you using a public place to represent your opinions, but you could at least use proper <s>spelling and grammer</s> English in general. I am honestly ashamed to have someone from .org post such a thing on that group page. You really want to insult these other jugglers by saying that their palm isos and enigmas are sloppy? Yet you will try to turn around and save face claiming that you respect them for their art? Sir, I have lost my respect for you if you are going to jump against your fellow, like minded, men and women for nothing more than taking a job opportunity. If I'm not mistaken, you said yourself that you would do the same thing. You may have practiced your art to the point that it is presentable to an audience, but many of us are not at that level. You seem to have such an "elitist" attitude that really cuts through.

As I have said, I am not particularly happy about the commercialization of contact juggling nor some of the things that this commercial may bring about, but it has nothing to do with the jugglers that were present in that video. To be honest, I would LOVE to see this go the way of the yo-yo where it has a lot of hype at first, and dies down to the dedicated group of people who are truly interested in the art itself.

I feel as though you have crossed a line with your statement, and with that I leave this quote.

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
-- The Friends of Voltaire, 1906


[/quote]

Mako, i owe you, and every one else in that post an apology, it was hastily written and just plain not fair. I was writing it to attach some one that i don't know, and to be fair have not really given a chance. I think that i am honestly feeling a little threatened by this marketing, and i am not fully sure why. You are right to be ashamed of me. and i would like to thank you for making me think twice. because i have realized how much i am ashamed of myself for this i was just bashing people with out cause, i had no real reason to put anyone down and this goes so much against everything that i like to think i am or am trying to be in my life that it amazes me and shows me that i still have a long way to go. my hope here is to learn from my mistake, and hopefully be able to one day show you that i am a better person than this one thing. but if you take that with a grain of salt i will understand.

Once again i would like to send apologies first and for most to the any one in that video or not in it that i may have offended. Earlier in the conversation i said that i would have done it also if the opportunity had presented its self to me, so i really have no place to try to put you in your. Sorry.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 03:53 
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wow... props to you Mark for manning up and admitting that. The world needs more people like you. Stubbornness gets people nowhere.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 04:55 
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Props to Mark for his gracious response. It's rare a thing on the internet. That said, Mako, I know where you are coming from, but please be careful about reproducing what cj'ers have written elsewhere on this forum without their consent. I'm not writing that as a moderator btw - it's purely my own thoughts on the subject.

Again, I can understand why people have misgivings towards fushigi. It's taking something many of us have dedicated years of our live to, and trying to package up neatly for public consumption.

And yes, it does remind me of various fads in the past, where items are sold as though someone will be able to take something home and immediately perform miracles, but which turn out to require a lot of effort and practice. I find the marketing slightly deceptive in the regards (though this has nothing to do with any of the performers in the video). The reference to "magic" could be seen to imply that there's more than just skill involved.

This is what came to my mind in fact:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OJ6iEKtM_Q[/youtube]

But my thoughts remain the same. Even if 99% of those who buy a fushigi are disappointed, there will still be that 1% who put in the effort to make it work and some of those will go on to do wonderful things.

Contact juggling has made such an important difference to my life that I find it difficult to begrudge anyone the chance to share it with a wider audience, even if they want to make some money from it.

Btw Duke - if you speak with John again, it might be worth inviting him to this forum. He seems a reasonable sort of fellow, and it may be worthwhile engaging in a dialog with people here.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 05:07 
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iMark wrote:
Btw Duke - if you speak with John again, it might be worth inviting him to this forum. He seems a reasonable sort of fellow, and it may be worthwhile engaging in a dialog with people here.


Duke Hadley wrote:
John,

I would love nothing more than to help you write your dedications, but unfortunately a phone call is out of the question, as I live in Denmark. I'm still happy to help in any way I can through the internet.

You may find help, inspiration, and understanding at various websites:
http://www.contactjuggling.org is a community-driven help page where beginners can go for the first few years of their practices to learn the basics, as well as hints on performing, stretches for before and after a routine, and reviews of other contact juggling-related media. The community itself stays connected through the forums at http://www.contactjuggling.org/mx, as well as through other language sites including http://www.kontaktjonglage.de/.

The Ministry of Manipulation is a small collective with a huge presence in the contact juggling world. Through their own innovations, and the collaborative blog they publish, the Ministry helps fuel the growth of our art. They also wrote an extremely helpful history of contact juggling, which you can find here: http://www.ministryofmanipulation.com/articles/.

These are kind of crude and incomplete distinctions, but contact juggling can be split into three basic categories: body rolling, palm spinning, and isolation. The first two have existed for thousands of years, evolving separately in the Mediterranean and ancient China. Isolation came a bit later, but flourished in the hands of modern mimes (perhaps you have seen one hold a briefcase in one place while moving around it, as though it's stuck in mid-air).

With a few notable exceptions, the three categories were never married until Moschen developed his crystal ball routine. He was loathe to name the art, but if forced into a corner, he called it "dynamic manipulation." In his 1985 routine, "Light", Moschen brought together the three disparate sorts of manipulation, and much of what he performed was completely original.

In 1991, James Ernest published the instructional "Contact Juggling." Most of the book mirrored "Light." Justifiably, Moschen did not approve of the outright theft of his routine, and as he is a well-respected member of the juggling community, "contact juggling" became a shunned art-form, not to be practiced or performed in deference to Moschen.

Unfortunately, the next decade saw the stagnation of all three "categories" of contact juggling, because each was now seen as the sole territory of Michael Moschen. The art instead grew in unusual places; Michael Glenn, Ferret, and others helped popularize it in the American Renaissance Festival. In Europe, innovation in contact juggling grew from the underground dance community. Tony Duncan, who had been performing body rolling and palm spinning since before Moschen's "Light", spent several years teaching the art in Japan.

Steven Ragatz, another tour de force in the juggling world, also developed an impressive routine involving body rolling during this time. A decade went by, and as the new millennium approached and passed, new groups sprang up all over the place. A Yahoo! online community formed that would eventually become ContactJuggling.org. Greg Maldonado and Owen Edson produced an instructional DVD with many new and innovative routines.

In your own state of Florida, Ferret, Rich Shumaker, and others helped organize the first few contact juggling conventions. In attendance were big names in the contact juggling community, including Greg Maldonado, Michael Glenn, Greg Irwin, and Daniel Kerr (who went on to help organize a UK contact juggling convention).

Soon after this, the Ministry of Manipulation formed. The UK-based troupe represented the growing trend to fuse our art with different types of modern dance, from modern contact improvisation all the way to break dancing and hip-hop popping and locking. This group consists of Drew Batchelor, Ryan Mellors, Jeanine 'Jea9' Ebnother, Ed Adams, Emanuele 'Moon' Marchione, and Colin Daniel. Their circle extends to other big names in modern contact juggling, including Matt Henman, Jago Parfitt, Bruno Labouret, Pich, Kyle Johnson, Dawn Monette, Mr. Om, Meg Pike, the Intrika duo, and the German sensation Kelvin Kalvus.

The history of contact juggling is a long and rich one, but also one deeply fractured by recent resentment. And keep in mind that my retelling is an incomplete one, biased like anyone else's might be; I'm only just one performer of many. To get the full story, and full cooperation, I encourage you to open a dialogue with the members of our main representative community, http://www.contactjuggling.org/mx. Some of them are angry at the commercialization, some of them are excited at the prospect of spreading the art, but all of them are reasonable people who will be happy to show you support if you show your respect for them.

The best thing you could do to show this respect is to register in the forum and introduce yourself, ask them what they think. As I said, we're reasonable people; I don't imagine many would be upset with your branding as long as you made the name "Contact Juggling" and a little bit of its history clear to the purchaser after they bought your product. I hope more than anything that you succeed in selling lots of your Magic Gravity Balls, and that this success fuels growth in our community and enriches our art. I'm sure many of my peers feel the same way.

Cheers,
Duke

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 05:36 
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Wow... I never saw this comming... I'm in awe right now...
Everything about this is wrong, it's making a complete specticle out of an art form...


I really don't know what to think about this...

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 05:36 
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Fair play mark. People don't apologise enough. :D

on topic though. I'm not a fan of this. I just don't think that cj is somehing that should be marketed or at least not in this way. My brain immediately put this in the Myachi catagory which is somewhere that I don't want cj to be.

If it brings more like minded people into our community then great.

In my mind this differs from the yoyo marketing a few years back. Yoyo started as a toy and then developed from there to people performing with it because they saw the potential.
Contact juggling, from what I know of the history, started as a performing art.

It just doesn't quite feel right to me.

Well done to mako for doing the ad though. :D

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 05:41 
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In all honesty, I see this as a really bad thing.

No disrespect to the performers, but you're rubbish. I can see the lack of experience and confidence in all of you. Now, this isn't your fault and I don't blame you at all, you haven't been going long. It's the company for trying to rush stuff, and to take advantage of beginners like this by shaking ideas of money and fame in their faces.

the guy running the show, OMG. How much of a corporate cliche can you get? Seriously, think about what you're doing. try to learn the stuff yourself before trying to sell something you know nothing about, and no FEELING for. Maybe then your attempt at interest will show to be something more than financial. Make (more) money off your own back, not someone else's.

At the moment, what we do means something to us. Just like Hip Hop back in the 70's, when it was all about expression and the way you felt when you danced. then in the 80's, marketing and corporate companies took notice, and used it to sell stuff. they took advantage of the inexperienced beginners in the exact same way, and before long, Hip Hop had stagnated, and was morphing into this warped view of what it means today. Because it was mainstream, more people saw it, liked it, and before long everybody in the popular clubs was pointing, Tutting, kicking and locking without really understanding or feeling the reason why. Their moves looked s**t, and continued going that way as people became lazy, because they didn't have this understanding, this relationship with what it meant to dance, to make music, and to create an amazing mural. the art stagnated, people lost interest, to the point where the old hip hop ways are even a joke. Names got simplified for the public, everything coming together under fewer and smaller blankets, above all, monikers that were just plain wrong, and confused everything, and helped to fuel the stagnation of hip hop, and is one of the many reasons why it was able to warp into this vision of gangsta, drugs and violence.

I see this happening with Contact, and it scares me. ok, maybe not so much the violence, but the misinterpretation, and the, well, to be honest, complete Raping and Pillaging of our culture.

I beg you, do not be 'That Guy'.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 07:18 
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Ok, so, this is kinda scary. And as the person who helped Mako spread the word to the rest of the CJers in the commercial, I also feel partially responsible.

Firstly, I feel like I need to defend the performers here. We got the call that someone needed contact jugglers for an Orlando-based commercial, so the Florida CJers came out of the woodwork and auditioned for the gig. Nobody knew what the commercial was for until just before the shooting. If there had been more time, and everyone knew the game plan, some people might have chosen not to do the show. As Mako said, though - if they hadn't done it, someone else would have, and whoever that someone else was might have portrayed CJ much worse. I'm friends with everyone in that shoot, and all of them but one are dedicated amateurs - they don't juggle professionally. In a way, their performance, if not as clean as someone's who dedicates their life to it, was more appropriate for the commercial than having someone like Mr. Om or Kelvin. It's a commercial to create more dedicated amateurs, after all. Let me make it clear, though, that I'm defending the performers but not the commercial and Fushigi itself. It's a sly way of making a buck, and even though he says there's no magic involved, the commercial suggests it's easy and quick to learn. That hurts all those who make money banking on the fact that not only do they look mystical, their audience realizes CJ isn't simple, quick, or easy.

Hopefully this guy John will make it out to the forums and we can convince him to change his marketing strategy. If he does, everyone should be careful not to attack him, because it'd definitely be better if he's on our side. Duke, let us know when he replies. I'm not sure you "speak on behalf of the international juggling community," given that nobody I've spoken to yet has any idea who you are, but you make a few good points (and a few bad ones - he should really include CJ in the title..), so hopefully John'll listen to reason.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 08:21 
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Well said Lirnyk, well said

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 09:22 
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I agree, well said indeed.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 09:58 
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Yeah Duke - well played. Not sure if I believe the response when judging by the TV spot alone...

I'm looking forward to seeing how this relationship develops. It could be good... but this kind of feels as if, say, Neon Husky started selling contact balls with a quirky name and then pretending that this whole discipline is just called "Huskyball" or whatever. And then advertising all over TV about it.

(to neonhusky - sorry, just needed an example! thanks for the stage ball. it still rules.)

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 11:39 
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I want to thank everyone for their input. There are people on both sides of the fence here, and I rather enjoy seeing both sides of it when I cannot pick a side for myself.

Mark: I apologize for reposting without your consent, I was a more than a hair upset. If you would like that post taken down, it will be.

Duke: Thank you for contacting John, I feel it would have been some sort of conflict of interest for me to do so.

+Weather: It was a rather tasteless joke, I will agree to that. It was the fact that he was upset over his art spreading previously.

LTC: As lirnyk said, 5/6 of the performers just do this for themselves. The 6th is a performer who is very clean with his work. Before the shoot, and during it in some ways, we showed how much practice some of the stuff takes. They had us showing people a lot of enigma and claw iso since they are fairly easy to learn. Teaching people butterflies (sorry Bazz) had a few drops on concrete (I got those balls, huzzah for acrylics I don't worry about dropping).

The people I am most concerned about are the performers. The ones who make their living from contact and stage or street shows. Those who put me in a state of awe with the accuracy and precision of your moves. I juggle solely for myself, I will never be to the level a lot of you here are at. I really can't see that it will impact me except by comments by random strangers when I am outside.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 11:47 
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Mako your good, no worries, what i did was kinda childish really and i am thankful that i could learn something from it. That being said i still would have to disagree with the whole thing in general, and would over all like to agree with what ed posted, he was able to put into words what i was trying to in a much better way.

I almost think we should either get john here so we can let him know how this community feels about all this, or maybe write a collective letter explaining our self and send it signed .org, given that all people who have put input, or have been following this thread, approving of its content of course.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2010, 12:02 
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Heres my outsiders standpoint. I've never worked in marketing, but I think I have a fairly firm grasp on it and its affects with American culture.

There are a few reasons why CJ is so unknown. Half of it IS the fact that it requires dedication, and perseverance. Americans- You know it, I know it; We like cheap, quick, and easy. When was the last time you went OUT for pizza, rather than getting it delivered? With this whole "Magic floating ball" campaign- It looks fun and simple. IF you were to approach this as CJ ACTUALLY is, no one would buy it. Americans aren't interested in dedication- We're interested in HERE and NOW. It would be like selling a dish soap that says "Now with lemon scent and TWICE the required scrubbing!!"

Business men will be business men. And from experience, I have to honestly question if he cares about us as much as he leads on to. Why would he want to side with us at the LAST second- RIGHT BEFORE the commercial is aired [and mind you- after the DVD has been shot, and edited]? It would be a complete uprooting of all plans that have been moving forward and smoothly up to this point. Changing it to appropriately represent the CJ community would have been a decision that would have HAD to been set MONTHS ago. All they can do at this point is try to make us happy. Rest assured though, [and I apologize for the negativity] they won't have our backs on this one.

I don't blame Mako. I don't blame the other CJers. My hat is off to you gentlemen for having the courage to display yourselves on TV doing something you love. I greatly respect you for that and hope you can look back at this commercial in 50 years and have a good chuckle at "that time you were on TV". Hopefully- there will be more TV performances for you with less [or no] hostility surrounding them.

But my fellow CJers- I think we should brace ourselves for a wave. Hands over hearts and remember why we came into CJ in the first place. Some of us needed an outlet. Some of us needed a friend. Some of us needed direction. Some of us needed help. We will ALWAYS be the core- That title can't be taken from us. Remain true to yourselves, and true to the others that stand beside you during all of this. This doesn't have to change our community, our friendship and our love for each other- and an art that has thus far given us all a very special feeling that only other CJers can truly comprehend.

Don't lose that feeling. Don't lose your soul. don't lose our bond and CJ as we know it will never die.

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