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alarming trend in contact juggling
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daydream
MoM Mobsta



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 750
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject:

Dancing was the whole reason I started to CJ in the first place!

I told off my teacher telling him I didn't care for his tricks, i just wanted to move the ball around. HA! good thing he is a patient man!

Yay for dancing, flowing, fun...

Can't care if you don't like it, because your not me.

"dance like no one is watching"

Dawn
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Colin
It's Fruit of the Loom



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject:

take 2

ncfiala wrote:
Spare: I don't consider my contact juggling to be ripping off Michael Moschen. I don't really do any of the tricks that Moschen does in Light. Most of my contact juggling focuses on body rolls trying to utilize as many intermediate stall points as possible. Perhaps ripping-off was not quite the right phrase in my original post. I have nothing against taking ideas from other disciplines. In fact, it is a great idea. However, when all someone does is combine the old with moves from another skill, something is wrong in my opinion.

Ryan: I don't agree that developing contact juggling along more traditional lines has to be just copying Moschen. Very little of the contact juggling I do involves tricks that Moschen did in Light. Even when I do a trick of Moschen's I don't consider it just copying because I integrate it into what I am doing to create something new. If this was still just copying then every toss juggler ever would be guilt of copying the first guy who threw a ball in the air.


So your not copying Moschen? what about Greg, Ryan, Silver. Do you do any tricks that they did before you? Did you invent contact juggling or something. Well if not then someones copied something somewhere. Just because everyone else is doing it and Moschen didn't doesn't mean copying those so called innovative jugglers is OK, because they copied Moschen in the first place. You are ripping someone off. face it.

Wearing black and Rolling and acrylic around your body IS ripping off Moschen. *Colin Busts out Detours quote "Everbody can see whats in the light, you can imitate it. if its maluable you can reshape it. The creative person always walks two steps into the darkness."

As far as I'm concerned (very little concern mind you) all Moschen did besides being a genius was to take a prop somewhere it has never been before. How he used acrylics in light. (oh and lets not forget all his other stuff too).

I think I know what Ryan meant when he supposedly said "maybe I should just throw away my acrylics and get on with my life". Just using a common prop can sometimes make you feel like your only ever gonna be someone else's shadow. Did Moschen feel this way when he had seen multiball and 1 ballwork before he created light? Did it stop him? Nope he took that prop (revolutionised it by using an acrylic) and percervered into the darkness and came out with Light. He just took that prop to a place no one had taken it before. I think that one of the things Moschen was trying to say to Ferret, in the infamous phone conversation post was, search in the darkness to find your light for yourselves. Easier said than done, I can't imagine Moschen had an easy ride himself. Then again we are talking about a creative genius, who only asks that we find our own light, for only one reason;
Because its there.

Extending Moschens bodyrolling technique hmmm, its just reshaping his idea. What this liquid revolution in contact is doing is reaching out from there to darker places. I'm not so secrectly ripping moschen off. I contact with an acrylic for example. I also dig new school and waving schools too.
Contact juggling for me is NOT all about out doing each other with some sick technical body rolls utilising parts of the body no one has used before. (I think you'll find that just misinformation or lack of, people do do this and are probably leagues ahead of you) Its just a tiny part.

I could spend a life time collecting tricks and ideas(reminds me of pokemon, Tricks gotta collect 'em all), but then what? what have you achieved? Is this methood of thinking about juggling going anywhere particulary interesting or exciting?. I've come up with quirky moves I think are oringinal, only to find someone else is doing it better than me. Example is in "I want to buy you flowers" vid. Ok 1 move but still. If your just interested in tricks then theres boat loads you haven't seen. I'm possitive. You haven't seen that bridge roll to over the top of the head to bridge roll extention thing I do. Its no big deal to me anymore who is using or independantly learnt something I though was original. Tricks are cool but theres more to contact then that.

I illustrate what | mean.
Going back to the very begining to he first time I encontered contact.
I recall seeing someone CJ and said to myself "I want to do that" or" I like that" or thinking something else I don't know. Most of us can relate to this in some way. But I was already following someone else by example. Emulating. I'm not suggesting that this should never be done.

long story short. After many years juggling I owe it to my self to go beyond this 'mind' set or frame of thinking, and exspand in new directions I find interesting and unexplored.(or be stagnantin my mind) Breaking away from the mold. The mold others created when I first seen them CJ and I followed, and the one I created in my own mind. New objectives anyone? I just can't justify the time, energy, and effort involved in contact and just be content with mastering all the technique I can or to be like someone else.

For somepeople, theres underlying fundementals and principals behind contact. Theres a main focus or component which interested them in contact. Elements like isolation, grace, flow. skill, simplicity, meditation, ballance, concentration, stillness, motion etc. These things moschen had no part in creating. This is the edge(for the moment) of contact. All the dance stuff is just a direction to explore, nothing more. Thats all we're doing here, exploring.

ncfiala wrote:

Silver: You are right, I don't get out much. The only contact juggling I see besides my own is what I see in the videos that I download.

If thats all you go by, then it sure seems like that.
basicly you suffer from lack of info. one word: London, I was humbled. also inspired.
you really must meet some other cjers (perferable ones who will blow your mind)

ncfiala wrote:

Ryan: I don't agree that developing contact juggling along more traditional lines has to be just copying Moschen. Very little of the contact juggling I do involves tricks that Moschen did in Light. Even when I do a trick of Moschen's I don't consider it just copying because I integrate it into what I am doing to create something new. If this was still just copying then every toss juggler ever would be guilt of copying the first guy who threw a ball in the air.


Who cares if you think you are not copying Moschen. If you do ANY trick on this site your copying someone. Someone invented those tricks or adapted them. Just because you are distancing yourself from moschen doesn't mean your not a biter. Contact juggling tricks for me are kinda public domain though. I just cutting into you for all that "I don't do Moschen tricks" attitude. Its BS.

ncfiala wrote:

Drew: There's certainly nothing wrong with combining contact juggling with dance. It just seems to me that a lot of the material I have seen of this nature lately has just been to do the same old tricks and then dance
while just holding the ball..

You show us what you can do thats so original. Melt my brain, please. Extending body rolling technique is not an original idea. I had it and am doing it. Its soooo basic to my understanding.

ncfiala wrote:

Coleman: I certainly think that every discipline should look to other disciplines for inspiration and ideas for new tricks. However, there is a difference between integrating tricks from two disciplines together to create something new and just doing two things at the same time.
Gilligan doesn't just dance and do the the same old patterns.

Yep, its just rehashing of old material. Into something new and different. You said so yourself "Even when I do a trick of Moschen's I don't consider it just copying because I integrate it into what I am doing to create something new."

ncfiala wrote:

The word "art" is usually used by pretentious people who would like to distance themselves from more mainstream entertainment and attach an air of profundity to what they are doing. It is not profound, it is just meaningless fun. Get over it and yourselves..


I appologise for all the people who have a higher definition of Contact.
Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it does not exist. I think you refuse to let any of that in. Just entertain the possiblity that there is art(atleast for some others). Thats all I do. I won't come to any conclusions about life, untill its actually over.

Seriously though I agree. I think contact juggling is a bit pretentious. Maybe it was just me.
I'm starting to loosen up though. I figure I stop obssessing about tricks and trying to extend the technique into the realm of "Bigger, longer, outrageous body rolls" that put Moschens limited use of body rolling to shame. Not hard really.

ncfiala wrote:

I certainly did not want to come across as if I discourage the borrowing of ideas from other disciplines. This is a great idea and I do it all the time. ..

yep, by copying everybody else.

ncfiala wrote:

But if all you are doing is doing two things at the same time, I don't think you are truly creating something new.

yep, your just doing 2 things. Kinda like when you said "Even when I do a trick of Moschen's I don't consider it just copying because I integrate it into what I am doing to create something new." What do you mean by "integrate into what I am doing.." part. What is it you are doing?


Ok enough.
Contact juggling is changing.

I really liked this topic ncfiala. nice one. I can see everyones point of view. Its cool. Coleman nice post.
I don't think there is a moral to this story, but copying moschen is no worse then copying a lowly Cjer who has not been relegated to some taboo area. So taking ideas from one source is plagerism, borrowing from many is research. Like I said earlier, I have little concern for the whole Moschen issue. But what happens when all those sources got their idea from one source.

Ask your self:
Why did I learn contact in the first place?
Who are my influences?
What do I want to do with contact?
Where do I what to take it?
Is this an exciting, interesting, unexplore direction?
I don't think theres easy answers or are easy to swallow.


Oh and what drew said^ beauty you say?

Edit, I think an even more Alarming trend in contact is this division in mind set. London and europe connections new school and liquid stuff. the silky smooth technique with perfect isolation,
vs.
The juggling based technique stuff from America I keep seeing. Come on you guys, I'm an American so I'm allow to say this, All the really cool stuff I see on .org comes from over here. Very few exceptions to this rule.
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Ryan
Ministry. Just like Colin
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:31 am    Post subject:

Colin wrote:
Edit, I think an even more Alarming trend in contact is this division in mind set. London and europe connections new school and liquid stuff. the silky smooth technique with perfect isolation,
vs.
The juggling based technique stuff from America I keep seeing. Come on you guys, I'm an American so I'm allow to say this, All the really cool stuff I see on .org comes from over here. Very few exceptions to this rule.


Whoa... I'm not sure if I want to touch this..
Where is all this American stuff you keep seeing?

Just be careful where you take this train of thought. There are a few people in America doing good work. Just because they are not participating in this forum doesn't mean they don't count.



My opinion on the "alarming new trend in contact juggling" is this: all this talk of 'development and evolution' has pretty much started to mean doing bodywaves with a ball, or tracing a liquid pattern around. At some point, though, we have to realize that this really isn't a new thing at all, just looks new to the uneducated eye. If we limit 'development' to mean one thing, then we are shooting ourselves in the foot and stopping ourselves from moving further.
To really be focused on creating, you have to take a RISK, which means stepping out into the darkness. It means letting go of your precious techniques, your acrylic balls and your isolations. It means thinking about what you have really learned, and applying it to something new.
The RG video was well timed... it points to other directions and possibilities that are entirely different from this 'new-school' (I'm starting to cringe when i say that. sorry I introduced the term) isolation based contact thing.

Yet I doubt many of the people here really will take the effort to become a gymnast now. Its much easier to dl'd a few videos off reflective.net, read some tutorials and learn how to pop. No disrespect meant to the people who are doing it (in fact, i think they might understand this post more than everyone else. And they will recognize the importance of Nika posting in this thread... Nika started all this dance madness)

Thats all I'm gonna say for the moment... best just leave it up to everyone else to make sense of this for themselves. I fear I am starting to sound a bit like the original post. The difference is, I don't have as much faith in the beleif that we will suddenly discover new techniques and tricks just by playing with basic cj. A lot of it has been done, and the book is being written

Gotta run.
sorry for the long post.
Its my birthday
Ryan
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Colin
It's Fruit of the Loom



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:50 am    Post subject:

yep, I like how I said it "All the dance stuff is just a direction to explore, nothing more. Thats all we're doing here, exploring. "


Ryan said
"Whoa... I'm not sure if I want to touch this..
Where is all this American stuff you keep seeing?"

I'm not!!, its all the older stuff I'm refering too. Thats the point though, I haven't seen anything from over there in a while, maybe I'll just have to buy CJ part II to quench my thirst......

Theres loads of you guys state side and I wont get to see any cool juggling from over there unless they make a new vid. And yes, I know its there......

I said that to intentionally ruffle some feathers. Maybe someone will post a vid and shut me up.....

?
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silver



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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Location: bristol, south west england

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject:

<random post>

you got to love dancing in the dark, it suddenly feels like you're flying....
and then, just at the last moment, you realise you fell off a cliff.

</random post>
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The Manipulator



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject:

Durbs wrote:

Apologies are in order here - sorry.
I didn't intend for my post to be critical of seated CJ - I was just stating my preference. I've seen some amazing multi-balling, it whilst it does impress me, personally, it doesn't inspirep me and it's not where I want to go with my CJ To each their own


Apology accepted, and I'm sorry. I don't let much bother me anymore, but I've finally found my niche - The Love Of My Life - and I had to defend her. To Remy and especially Beth, check and checkmate.

I have been looking for some good videos of palm-spinning and especially 5 balls per hand, or someone working with 5 ball palm-spinning to exchange ideas. Upon breaking this barrier I find it opens up a new set of patterns. Most of the people posting in this thread seem to be serious, professional CJ'ers and I'm hoping someone can help me.

To Silver:

In my 20 years of toss and bounce juggling I never felt the need to perform, even though I knew I was very good. Oh, I'd perform at retirement homes, non-profit organizations, or for family and friends. I don't copy anyone, I have been a self-teacher. For instance, I taught myself to toss juggle 3 balls using only my thumb and index fingers. I've never seen anyone else do this, someone might. Then how do I make this harder I ask myself, so I toss juggle the three open-palmed. I was working on toss juggling 3 using the backs of my hands when I got side-tracked on CJ'ing. The point of my story is: Talent screams to be used. Since I bought my thirteen 2 1/2" acrylic wonders, my talent has been screaming. I am in the process of advertising locally to start, but if I can't make enough money in this area I'm going to pack up and hit the road. So maybe I'll show up on your doorstep someday. I wish there wasn't an ocean between us it'd be much easier. I am an extremist, as well as a perfectionist. I have always been strictly a free-stylist, I don't believe in putting together routines, (not that there is anything wrong with routines, they're just not my style). I don't just spin balls, I interpret the music through the balls. As someone posted somewhere else, I make the balls dance, (since my legs can't move as well as they used to move).
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Loves Christmas Day
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject:

Yikes-what a large and very interesting can of worms ncfiala opened!

In all honesty, I wasn't trying to make a statement by keeping quiet until a posting like that came up, it was just coincidence. Sunday night was the first time I've looked at this site since I registered, and as it happened there was a subject in discussion that directly involved my favourite aspect of CJ! I had to pipe up, really..

I've had a major love for dancing for the last 22 years and a love for crystals for a good 10 years, it was inevitable they would merge.
And I do feel partially responsible for "this dance madness"-but really, ball manipulation has been around for way longer than I have, and mime has been around for absolutely donkies-all I did was put a slight modern popping/locking twist to it. I'm sure I wasn't the first to do it, but maybe the first to get recognition for doing it.
I'm very flattered that my stuff has inspired people, but hopefully that is all it has done. I'm just laughing to myself at the cenario:- a bunch of CJers sitting in a circle on the floor and another bunch standing up doing a full circle liquid-mexican-wave thing, with Monty Python style cries of "SPLITTERS!" flying accross the room. Ho ho.

And happy birthday Ryan-you've got a beautiful day for it!

Nika

xxx
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ncfiala



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:46 pm    Post subject:

Well thanks for the replies. I didn't expect this to cause such a discussion. I'd like to respond again to some of these.

LCD: Point taken. Everyone has a different style and vision of what contact juggling is and where it should be going.

Coleman: I never said what I was doing was innovative. I'm just trying to push the limits of what I can do at the moment.

Lexi0030: This is like a high school student who copies their geography report out of the encyclopedia. I don't quite see the point. Nothing you said changes my opinion that art is just another word for entertainment that has been deemed worthy by the artistic elite.

Drew: That was unbelievable.

Remy: Freehand is actually my main thing and you are probably right that these tricks are the exception, but yo-yoing has never been about using the whole body like I thought contact juggling was. I don't think the same standard applies.

Durbs: Maybe the words were a little harsh. I tend to be very blunt.

sparkle: Interesting.

Feuro: I never said I didn't like the dancing style of contact juggling (although I don't). Whether or not I like it is irrelevant. It's just that in my albeit limited exposure to contact juggling, this is the only direction I see it being taken. I think one is really limiting contact juggling by taking the central idea to be that of isolation. To me, isolations are just novelties. To me, contact juggling is about skill and not illusion.

Spare: Maybe I shouldn't have said that it doesn't exist. Let's just say that I think it's a synonym for entertainment deemed worthy by the elite.

Silver: I didn't intend to piss you off. I understand that it is probably very hard to dance and contact juggle at the same time. I never said that it wasn't hard. I think it would probably be very hard to contact juggle and pogo-stick at the same time too. However, if pogo-stick contact juggling seemed to be the direction the discipline was taking, you would probably be concerned too.

JustFred: I see your point. I guess it's just that what makes me go wow about contact juggling is the skill and not the illusion.

Colin: I just don't accept your opinion that any rolling based contact juggling is just copying Moschen. Maybe it is in a very literal sense, but if we let that stop us no one would do anything because chances are that someone has done it before. Besides, from what I have seen, Moschen did very little contact juggling. I said it before and I'll say it again. If all rolling based contact juggling is just ripping-off Moschen, then why is not all toss juggling ripping-off the guy who first threw a ball in the air? I think the difference in most people's mind's is that they can put a face on Moschen and not the later guy, but it doesn't make any difference since the latter guy surely existed, we just don't know who he is. Anyway, I never stated that originality was the utlimate goal. Originality is good, but originality just for its own sake can lead to a lot of crap. I see nothing wrong with borrowing from the masters and extending it. That's how the human species has gotten to where it is. If we started from scratch every time, we would never get anywhere. Besides, I really don't see what is so original about combining contact juggling with dance.

Ryan: It's nice to hear that someone who is apparently a leader of this isolation and dance based contact doesn't believe that this should be its only direction for future development. This gives me some hope.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what my opinion is of isolation and dance based contact juggling. Most of it just really doesn't do anything for me and that's fine. I know that most of the contact juggling going on is probably not of this sort, but it seems that a lot of the people that have a real influence in contact juggling's development are proponents of this style and I just really don't see it's appeal. To many it seems that the combination of dance and contact juggling is natural and logical and you assume that it is to all, but it isn't to me. I think you need to question your assumptions. If I started hailing pogo-stick contact juggling as the new direction for this discipline, I think others would question me.

Also, I never intended to come across as if I was a great contact juggler. I don't think that you need to be better than someone else to critique them. The truth is that I have only been contact juggling for about two years and I don't devote a ton of time to it because I have several other hobbies as well. The hardest trick I can do is probably a chest roll with stalls at both wrists, both elbows, and both shoulders or a twice around the neck roll. I am not a leader in this community and I don't want to be. I just hope the leaders of this community take contact juggling in enough different directions so that there is something for everybody.
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Drew



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject:

OT
Mr the manipulator,
For multiball madness you prabably want to talk to me or pich.
Theres 2 reasons why we haven't posted any videos online, and both of them will be released around autumn.

Colin I don't recommend you buy CJ II - you'll be very VERY disapointed.

I'm teaching a dance lesson this evening, with a firl not a ball... What does that make me in the context of this thread?
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Colin
It's Fruit of the Loom



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject:

Drew wrote:
OT
Colin I don't recommend you buy CJ II - you'll be very VERY disapointed.

I'm teaching a dance lesson this evening, with a firl not a ball... What does that make me in the context of this thread?


Well I'll eventually get it anyway. I like the idea of keeping fellow Cjers in bread 'an butter.(CJ III is in the pipeline) Oh and headache too for some sick head tricks.

I can vouche Drew has mad multiball skills. But what impressed me the most is his innovative teaching methods. Only a little bit of sittin in on some instruction...wow. When I decide I have time for multiball practice I know who I'll be calling.

NCfIALA
Quote:

Colin: I just don't accept your opinion that any rolling based contact juggling is just copying Moschen. Maybe it is in a very literal sense,...
What angle is it you are coming from? An abstract sense? And it reads the use of ACRYLICS in bodyrolling. Moschen did not invent a bodyroll. You are not getting my point.

Quote:

but if we let that stop us no one would do anything because chances are that someone has done it before. Besides, from what I have seen, Moschen did very little contact juggling.
Eh, the only book as of yet writen on the subject. Called contact juggling noless, did not stray to far from light. Still its not my point.

Quote:

I said it before and I'll say it again. If all rolling based contact juggling is just ripping-off Moschen, then why is not all toss juggling ripping-off the guy who first threw a ball in the air?
You are ripping off someone. Who cares if his name is Moschen or Gronk the cave man. Do you do just about any trick you learnt from this site? If so, you copied. From someone. And again Moschen did not invent bodyrolling. Its the his treatment of a Prop that makes the difference!!!

As for the "all toss jugglers...." Throwing a ball in the air is throwing a ball in the air. Throwing and catching was probably quite natural thing in early human evolution. However I would say all toss jugglers are ripping-off the first person to juggle balls in the air.
Only really when its acredited to someone else. ie rick rubenstein for his revenge. (Thanks rick, I used to love that trick). The wheel was definitely invented. People been rippin that one off since BC. They call it collective wisdom now.

Quote:

see nothing wrong with borrowing from the masters and extending it. That's how the human species has gotten to where it is. If we started from scratch every time, we would never get anywhere. Besides, I really don't see what is so original about combining contact juggling with dance.
No. We have gotten to where we are BECAUSE of those few brave persons (ie those masters) throughout history who dared to have original thoughts. Not because of people borrowing from them.

I don't see whats so oringinal about full bodyrolling. As for the liquid contact stuff, its just a direction that has not been fully explored, nothing more.



"Even when I do a trick of Moschen's I don't consider it just copying because I integrate it into what I am doing to create something new." What do you mean by "integrate into what I am doing.." part. What is it you are doing? whats the difference?

PS I'd like to see those shoulder stalls in a chest roll.


Last edited by Colin on Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:36 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Lexi0030



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject:

ncfiala wrote:
Lexi0030: This is like a high school student who copies their geography report out of the encyclopedia. I don't quite see the point. Nothing you said changes my opinion that art is just another word for entertainment that has been deemed worthy by the artistic elite.


You are absolutely right in a sense, except, in this instance, I don't see myself as a student but instead as a teacher. Apparently your version of art and mine greatly differ but, as is my right, I believe your version of interpretation is based upon a misconception therefore I only stated (and copied) how the rest of the world interprets this word.

When you consider those definitions as a whole, art is anything that is beautiful. Beauty is also in the eye of the beholder. When looking at the conclusion of this hypothesis, you might as well say that the beholder of beauty is also the beholder of art. It is obvious you are a beholder of neither.

Now I think it's time I stop. This board is known for having little to no drama and you haven't pissed me off yet. I tend to like my user name without the word "banned" or "moderated" next to it.

Enjoy your narrow-minded world. Eventually you'll be very lonely indeed.
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ncfiala



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject:

Colin: Why do you even bother to get out of bed in the morning, someone has already done that?

I guess I don't really get your point at all. Everything I do is ripping someone off according to you. Even if that is true, I really don't care. I contact juggle for only one reason, to have fun. I made no claim to originality. I can almost guarentee that virtually every trick you do is built upon the work of others. As is almost everything that anybody does. There isn't anything wrong with that. It's called progress.

Certainly great breakthroughs are made by individuals who have a flash of originality and ingenuity, but progress in anything tends to happen gradually, not in spurts, by building upon what has been done before. I am a mathematician and when I go about studying something new, the first thing I do is look at what has been done before. Ask anyone in mathematics or the sciences or in virtually any discipline at all and they will tell you the same thing. The great breakthroughs are many times made by people who take a risk and pursue a line of thought no else had yet pursued, but it is virtually always the case that they build heavily upon the works of others, "standing on the shoulders of giants" as Newton put it. This in no way diminishes their accomplishments.

I never said that full bodyrolling was original. I just think that it is a more natural direction for contact juggling to go, just as others might think that the dance stuff is more natural. But I think I understand why it is not going in that direction as much as I would like to see. The fact is, rather than do something hard (full bodyrolling), we would rather just do something else (dancing). I'm not saying that dance contact juggling is not hard, but just because it's hard does not mean that it's great or original. This happens in mathematics all the time. One sets out to solve a problem only to discover that you don't know how, so you change the problem to make it easier or switch to something else.

Well, I'm tired of typing.
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remy



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject:

Oh my... are you implying that we don't want to go in a direction because it is DIFFICULT??
Isolation is interesting because it is visually stunning, and the fact that it is a natural partner to dancing has NOTHING to do with it being "easy" or "hard". I stick with big body rolling, in part, becasue I have my doubts that I could ever be that good of a DANCER. I don't know anyone who has achieved ANY competency in juggling who is afraid of a challenge...
check out that footage of matt hennem with five clubs.
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Colin
It's Fruit of the Loom



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 2071
Location: UK, Hastings

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject:

ncfiala wrote:
Colin: Why do you even bother to get out of bed in the morning, someone has already done that?

I guess I don't really get your point at all. Everything I do is ripping someone off according to you.
yep within reason.

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Even if that is true, I really don't care.
thats the spirit.

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I contact juggle for only one reason, to have fun. I made no claim to originality. I can almost guarentee that virtually every trick you do is built upon the work of others. As is almost everything that anybody does. There isn't anything wrong with that.
Yeah I already said that. Its no big secret I've ripped moschen off, and countless other people. Yes Every trick I do is based off someone elses. And nope nothing wrong with it. Well no ones said they have a problem with it to me yet. Speak now or forever hold your peace. I happen to like contact thats why I'm here, contact juggling is fun.
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It's called progress.

If you want.

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I never said that full bodyrolling was original. I just think that it is a more natural direction for contact juggling to go, just as others might think that the dance stuff is more natural.
I bodyroll alot.
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But I think I understand why it is not going in that direction as much as I would like to see. The fact is, rather than do something hard (full bodyrolling), we would rather just do something else (dancing). I'm not saying that dance contact juggling is not hard, but just because it's hard does not mean that it's great or original.
I just think its just a direction that has not been fully explored. mmmm full bodyrolls *drool*

I only wailed on you because of that "I don't do moschen tricks" or what not. All you had to say is, true but I don't care I like contact anyway.

I dislike it when Cjers have the attitude of I don't rip off Moschen but I rip off every other cjer, but its OK because they got acrylic contact ball from moschen. Or as long as I don't do any tricks from light its not plagerism. Now thats just pretentious. I think just accepting moschen and every others contribution to contact then moving on is good. The Moschen issue does not really bother me anyway.

This is why I used moschen as an example of being creative in my earlier post, Ryan said it better than I:
"To really be focused on creating, you have to take a RISK, which means stepping out into the darkness. It means letting go of your precious techniques, your acrylic balls and your isolations. It means thinking about what you have really learned, and applying it to something new."
he did just that, more than once!!

Its good to hear your not trying to defend the "I don't copy" position. Since when did learning any of Moschens material become so taboo, since when did learning anything become so taboo? Oh the dark arts and necromancy you say....
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Last edited by Colin on Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kititt



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 221
Location: Lake Charles, La

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject:

If you don't like the direction CJing is going. Then go a different route and amaze us all.

I'll admit myself, that isolations and multiball-work, while beautiful, don't do much for me. I'd much rather see someone rolling a sphere up one arm, loop around the neck a few times then come back down to the other arm. Which is why I don't concentrate in isolations, and multiball work, the popping mixture, etc. I concentrate on what I like, while having respect for the others that take the art in a different direction than me. Who know's maybe I'll even eventually branch out, taking the body CJ to another field.

In short: if things aren't going in the direction you want. Then go a different direction and stop whining. Who cares if you're the only one. If it's worth the time of day people will notice.
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