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Principle and theory
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SenseiStrange



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Dead God's Dreams

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Principle and theory

In Aikido, I am a teacher of a physical art. Physical arts have core principles that guide the art. I gives a framework for analysis and aids those learning the art form.

In Aikido technique is not seen as important as principle. Technique is an application of principle.



Does this logic hold up in this art form as well? What are some of the guiding and defining principles that make up this art?


I will start. Feel free to disagree. Remember these are basic principles not LAW.


In order for Sphere manipulation (CJ) to be effective......



1.) the sphere moves smoothly across the body. Jerking motions, rapid shifts in direction, and tense body dynamics reduce the asthetic nature and effectiveness of a manipulation.
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Somnilocus



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject:

I think it applies to everything. :]
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FireMage



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 144
Location: College Station, TX

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:46 am    Post subject:

Not sure if this blurs the realm of principal and law, but there is definatly two guiding forces at work, or to work, in my opinion. I am also pretty sure this has been stated before elsewhere by numerous others...so please dont kill me for paraphrasing.

A manipulator must either move the ball around himself, or move himself around the ball.

And I believe this incorporates all dynamics.

After writing this i suppose one could do both at the same time. Thinking of a double time chest roll, where you would both roll the ball around the chest, and move youself under the ball. Not exactly sure of the practicality due to limited visibility and possible lack of control.
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Illumilatte



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 530
Location: San Marcos, Texas

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:47 am    Post subject:

FireMage wrote:
Thinking of a double time chest roll, where you would both roll the ball around the chest, and move youself under the ball. Not exactly sure of the practicality due to limited visibility and possible lack of control.


Actually that's how Michael G was teaching me and another girl to learn Chest Rolls. Surprisingly, if you do it right the ball moves slower and it's easier to get it. I thought it sounded hard, but I got it on the 3rd try
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FireMage



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 144
Location: College Station, TX

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:36 am    Post subject:

Michael probably had you take a step back with your lead foot as the ball was approaching your first shoulder. I was refering to circling in the other direction so that the ball rolled in the opposite direction of your body's spin. But when you are first learning the chest roll the step back with your lead first does seem to help. And thats awesome that you got it on the 3rd try too.
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ian



Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:35 pm    Post subject:

SenseiStrange, It would depend on what your intention is with the form. If you intend to perform, then technique is very important (though so is its application which is, of course, very fluid), but if you (like most cjers) are interested in it for personal development/fun, then I suppose technique need not be a 'guiding' principle.
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Somnilocus



Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject:

^ There are many different techniques within the community. Subtle differences and extreme. But they all have their appeal and are aesthetically pleasing for different reasons... yes technique is important, but there's not just one; it's important to "master" whatever technique you work with, which goes back to what SenseiStrange said:

"In order for Sphere manipulation (CJ) to be effective......
1.) the sphere moves smoothly across the body. Jerking motions, rapid shifts in direction, and tense body dynamics reduce the asthetic nature and effectiveness of a manipulation."
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su-nami



Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 193
Location: ireland

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject:

it sounds like ye are trying to define the purpose of cj, to me the purpose is just that i enjoy it the tricks are an added bonus, so i would would say the principle of cj is to still your mind. i agree with ian i think the principles of cj are diferent for everyone. =)
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Look!_This_Chånges!
Messing with Heads



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Underneath my ball

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject:

Many isolationists use a jerky motion, and it looks sick.

Anyway, what exactly do you mean? what are you trying to achieve?

This thread has an aroma resembling that of the Hippy.
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he4rty



Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 90
Location: England

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject:

reading all the talk of cj being different to each person reminds me of something I read about in a movement book.

Just as each musical insturment has a different sound and we need to learn to play by daily practice, so each body will move differently and each day we should explore and understand how our bodies move as each will have its own unique sound.
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SenseiStrange



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Dead God's Dreams

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject:

what are you trying to achieve?


Please reread my first post. I understand in physical arts, philosophy as much as anything else can affect the end product. If "thinking" is hippy - then perhaps I am. If you come to a discussion forum to talk about CJ- you might as well talk about it in a way that actually can enrich the art.


I am willing to bet these isolationists that use jerky motion use it in an way that breaks a flow and itself creates an effect. Mind you they are using smoothness of motion before and after a controlled jerking motion.


Su-nami I like that idea, and I agree. I think CJ has a lot to do with focus. At times it becomes our personal focus when we practice, and we learn to trap other's focus when we perform. A CJer with some magic can even use CJ to bend the focus of a person causing them to look in a place the performer does not want them to see. (misdirection) It amazes me that a person will lock onto the ball - until you look at them, then a person will lock eyes with you. You can control their focus bouncing it between your gaze and the balls if you so desire.


Excellent principle

- Focus
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FireMage



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 144
Location: College Station, TX

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject:

I would say that this topic might need a nudge of direction. Sensei isnt trying to talk about style. More about the forces or thought process behind the movements involved. What is it cj'ers do to make rolling the ball on oneself either possible or aestheticly pleasing. I would say principal is going to lead toward why we do a move, or use a style. where as technique is how we accomplish that move or style. Maybe that would clear things up. Sensei, as you started this topic feel free to interject here, but maybe this will clarify a bit.
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silver



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
Location: bristol, south west england

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Principle and theory

[quote="SenseiStrange"]

In order for Sphere manipulation (CJ) to be effective......



1.) the sphere moves smoothly across the body. Jerking motions, rapid shifts in direction, and tense body dynamics reduce the aesthetic nature and effectiveness of a manipulation.[/quote]

I'm sorry, this is just plain wrong.
It's a useful, limiting, rule to create a certain 'magic' dynamic to a performance.
It could never be considered as a principle of all contact.

a starting point for a principle might better concern the relationship between the ball(s) and performer/player more than a specific type of movement.

Hows about something along the lines of: Contact is defined by a dynamic relationship between player, surrounding and objects such that an aesthetic appearance is formed. This is limited by keeping the object in contact with the body for the majority of the time.

Further limitations are a personal choice and will result in different styles.

Silver
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SenseiStrange



Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 50
Location: The Dead God's Dreams

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject:

Great post Silver. However it is not plain wrong - you said so yourself. It is useful for creating an effect.

It might not be a principle, (I am not convinced) but the thought is not plain wrong. For those who claim the jerking motion and tenseness is good for the art form - could I see some good examples in video so I might expand my vision. Perhaps we are defining and seeing the same the differently.
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ThatBallGuy
Nomadic Techno-Gypsy, Scavenger-Symbiote



Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 689
Location: In a bus

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject:

"If you can catch/hold it there, you can roll it there"

I find that the learning curve for most arm rolls and body rolls goes up drastically if the player isn't developing control points.

It's not a universal principle, but it seems to be fairly general.

Another subtle tendency I'd like to point out is the "hang-time" point.

Most movements (butterflies, spiraling arm rolls etc) seem to derive the classic "floating" effect by taking advantage of the hang time point.

When an object is tossed freely (with no significant wind or air-resistance), it will describe a parabola in the air. The derivative of that parabola approaches zero at the mid-point (the highest point between going up and coming down).
At this point, the effective relative weight of the object is zero.

Now, in say a butterfly, the hand follows the ball to the apex, and most of the hand's relative movement under the sphere (going from palm to back, or vice-versa) is accomplished near the "hang-time" point at the apex. By taking advantage of the near-zero relative weight, the motion of moving the hand underneath the sphere is allowed a longer time allowance, as opposed to just flipping the hand over without raising it. But because the player is chasing the sphere along its trajectory, the fact that there's a "throw" with the hang time point is hidden, and instead it looks like they're defying gravity.

I would submit that as a guiding principle behind most butterfly-based motions (including lots of arm rolls, and even possibly the matrix family of body rolls)
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